Nominee For Email Of The Year
September 10th, 2009 | Posted in Current Events, Last Days, Misc Assorted General Stuff | 96 CommentsAnybody that knows me knows that 99.999999% of the time any email I get that says or in any way implies that it should be forwarded on is going to hit my trash folder fast enough to leave a trail of Cherenkov radiation and set off neutrino detectors all over the planet. I’m actually that bad about it.
However when I read this email from my sister it was both funny and factual enough that it really deserves to be shared. So instead of pummeling people’s inboxes with it I decided that I would post it here instead.
The subject line was: NOMINEE FOR “EMAIL OF THE YEAR”!!!
After being interviewed by the school administration, the prospective teacher said:
Let me see if I’ve got this right.
You want me to go into that room with all those kids, correct their disruptive behavior, observe them for signs of abuse, monitor their dress habits, censor their T-shirt messages, and instill in them a love for learning.
You want me to check their backpacks for weapons, wage war on drugs and sexually transmitted diseases, and raise their sense of self esteem and personal pride..
You want me to teach them patriotism and good citizenship, sportsmanship and fair play, and how to register to vote, balance a checkbook, and apply for a job.
You want me to check their heads for lice, recognize signs of antisocial behavior, and make sure that they all pass the final exams.
You also want me to provide them with an equal education regardless of their handicaps, and communicate regularly with their parents in English, Spanish or any other language, by letter, telephone, newsletter, and report card.
You want me to do all this with a piece of chalk, a blackboard, a bulletin board, a few books, a big smile, and a starting salary that qualifies me for food stamps.
You want me to do all this and then you tell me. . . I CAN’T PRAY?
Talk about your basic DUH! moments! If anybody ever needed prayer it’s teachers.
[Tags]email, teachers, prayer, prayer in school, teachers need prayer[/tags]
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You can pray at home, or you can allow me to teach evolution in Sunday school. Your choice.
How ’bout this? I’ll pray at home, I’ll pray while I’m driving down the street, I’ll pray while I’m in the store, I’ll pray in a restaurant, a theater a gas station or a library. I’ll pray in a courtroom or in a Senate chamber. I’ll do it silently or I’ll speak aloud to my God. I’ll do it without saying anything about it and I’ll do it after saying “Excuse me, I need to pray about this.”.
And if you put me in a room full of children expecting me to maintain order and teach them anything you can bet your last dollar I’m gonna be praying every minute of that time and I’ll not be shy about it either for it is only with God’s help that I’d survive the day and I’ll not deny Him when I need him so much as I would in that kind of situation.
And NO, you may NOT teach EVILoution in Sunday school!
I hope you’re not an actual teacher, with your seemingly weak grasp of science.
No wonder you think prayer helps.
Of course I believe prayer helps. I also believe that it’s not possible for anyone to prove otherwise.
You’re mixing it up with the old standard argument that you can’t prove that there is/isn’t a god.
Prayer working is easy to prove. If it works like Jesus said it would work in the bible (He hyped it a whole lot imo) then one way of checking if it worked would be to do a study on if prayer helps with things like illness (which it does not, according to research), or if Christians have it better than, say, people of another religion in the same region (which they don’t).
Heck, if it works anything like Jesus said it would, Christians could easily prove that it works. But guess what? Prayer doesn’t work any better than random chance.
You are guilty of confirmation bias: Every time you get what you pray for, you see it as proof that Jesus loves you. But you totally disregard every time prayer fails.
Oh, of course, you make up excuses like “it wasn’t in god’s plan” or something equally transparent. But we both know that you don’t, and can’t rely on prayer working, ever.
That’s the thing though. There’s a lot of times when what people are praying for or about (or their motivations for doing so) are running contrary to God’s will and that’s one of the fastest ways I know to see a prayer fail. I should know, I’ve been guilty of it enough myself. However that isn’t going to stop me from doing so and from advocating that others (even you) do so as well.
Just the excuse I predicted. I take it you use the same excuse for why your god doesn’t help praying starving children? (Sorry about the double post, this one is in the correct place).
I DON’T NEED TO PROVE THERE’S A GOD! OPEN UP YOUR EYE’S YOU CAN SEE HIM.
Really, there’s no need to shout. As for the rest, yeah, it’s true that if you look for God He’s easy to find. The sad part is that there are so many who have made the choice not to look for Him
Tell that to Dale and Leilani Neumann, the central Wisconsin couple who prayed rather than seeking medical care for their 11-year-old daughter, Madeline Neumann, who died in March 2008 of an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes.
They may have meant well, but they were wrong.
The reason is that some people are willfully blind and couldn’t see God’s will if it were printed on a billboard 9,000 feet square and a mile high.
They remind me of the story about the guy who was trapped in a flood, yet refused help saying “God will save me”. He repeats this assurance when somebody comes by in a boat offering to take him to safety. Later another group comes buy in a boat offering help. “God will save me” he assures them as he climbs to the top of his roof. Finally he’s hanging on to his chimney when a helicopter comes along offering him a ride to safety. “God will save me” he proclaims as he refuses help.
Of course, he drowns. When he comes before God he asks “Why didn’t you save me, I believed in you and prayed”. God replies to him “Son, I sent you two boats and a helicopter. What more do you want?”
The moral of this story is that people often don’t realize that God is sending help because they expect some magical help. In the case of that family he DID send them help. In the for of doctors and medical treatments that could have cured their daughter. The problem is that the parents were too blind to see it. Expecting instead for a sudden miraculous cure.
That’s not to say that God doesn’t do such things because I firmly believe that He does. I also believe that he expects a certain amount of sense from us as well.
Say that again when you are on your deathbed and wondering where you are going to go…………….Mr/Mrs. Science……….right.
If you are right and I am wrong about the afterlife, then we will lose nothing.
However, if I am right and you are wrong, you will lose it all. Eternity is an awfully long time to be WRONG.
Pascal’s Wager…how original. It appears to me that Pascal never truly considered the downside of his position being the wrong one. His argument was as ridiculous as if I proposed that monkeys would soon fly out of my posterior orifice, but even if I’m wrong, what would it hurt to keep a supply of bananas on hand in anticipation of the blessed event? Such an argument implies that this is a 50-50 proposition, i.e., either it will or will not occur as predicted. To the simple, I suppose it would indeed seem that way.
Although on the surface it would seem harmless enough to believe in such nonsense, the Christian religion has been anything but harmless. Take a walk on the dark side of Christian history for awhile. Read about the inquisitions, the witch hunts, the Reformation, the Crusades and the enslavement and destruction of native cultures wherever they were encountered by Christians. Ask yourself how such evil fruits could have been produced by a good tree (see Matthew 7:17,18).
What Pascal (and apparently you) have failed to consider is what if you’re wrong about more than just whether or not there is a god? What if there are many gods, and it is up to you to figure out which is the right one to worship? What if you’re supposed to use your “god-given” powers of discernment to recognize him/her/it and failing to do so will land you into the fiery lake right along side the rest of us? What if all the clues you need are right there in the bible and you have overlooked them because you did not love the truth? What if the strong delusion you have received so that you could believe such a fantastic lie was delivered to you at your own request (see 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12)? What if you’ve been worshiping Satan in disguise all along, and because you not only deliberately blinded yourself to it, but also brainwashed innocent little children into believing it as well, you will pay the ultimate price – the loss of your soul and the eternal torment of the damned?
Kind of puts the whole thing in a different light now, doesn’t it?
I believe in God but and that I have some small understanding of who He is and (basically) what He wants for mankind.
I firmly and devoutly believe that in order to enter the kingdom of heaven one must accept Jesus and the salvation He offers because of His sacrifice on the cross.
All those who refuse this salvation are condemning themselves to an unthinkable fate.
If your eternal choice is against Him then eventually He will turn His back on you. You will then be left in a place that was not even made for mankind (it was made for the devil and his angels), to suffer the eternal torment of knowing you COULD have escaped and didn’t.
God leaves the choice up to each individual. He wants us to choose to love and obey him of our own free will and will therefore sadly respect your choice to condemn yourself.
Dave, your first two statements weren’t so bad – at least you remembered to preface them with the phrase “I believe.” The problem occurred when you dropped that phrase and started speaking of the unknowable as though it were fact. And I’m sure you probably have no idea how ridiculous it sounds to someone who wasn’t brainwashed with this nonsense as a child.
I’m okay with you believing whatever you want to believe, but the thing that gets me really worked up is when people start pushing their beliefs on other people’s innocent and malleable little children without parental knowledge or consent! Would you want a Muslim deciding that he/she had the right to do that to your child, for example? Regardless of whether or not it is obvious to you, that is what the opening post is advocating for Christians (not for Muslims, of course), even if it’s somewhat subtle. Christians are trying to get their proverbial foot back in the door on the school prayer issue. What they need to do is learn to mind their own damned business! If they don’t like secular schools, then they can put their children in private schools or home-school them. Leave other people’s children alone!
I thought it should be obvious that what I was saying was what I believed and therefore didn’t need to preface each and every single statement with “i believe” since I credit readers with the sense to be able to spot the obvious.
As for the rest, let me ask you this.
If you sincerely believe that somebody choosing to do something will cause them some horrific fate, something “worse than death” that you wouldn’t wish on your worst enemy no matter how much you hated them. Would you do everything you could to convince them to choose differently? You sound like an intelligent, caring person so I’m going to go out on a limb and say that of course you would because you have no desire to see somebody suffer a horrible fate that they could avoid.
If you could travel back in time and speak to only one person, an employee of Cantor Fitzgerald, for a couple of hours the evening of 9/10/01 wouldn’t you do anything you could to get that person to decide to stay home the next day and NOT go to the towers? Or even get them to try to convince as many of their co-workers as possible to do the same?
Such is the case with Believers in and followers of Jesus. (note I don’t say “Christians” because not all who call Him “lord” truly believe in or follow Him.) However those of us who, to the best of our ability, do follow Him believe sincerely that those who do not accept Him as Lord and follow Him are in fact condemning themselves to the ultimate example of a fate worse than any death. A fate that they could easily avoid.
We honestly don’t want you or anyone to suffer that fate and so we end up coming across hard headed and stubborn about it because we KNOW what’s waiting those who make the wrong choice and it breaks our hearts that so many, billions in fact, are walking blindly into that fate.
The lake of fire was not made for man. It was made for the devil and his angels. The only reason man ends up their is because of making the choice not to accept Jesus and follow Him because if you’re not following Him then you’re following the enemy. Even if you don’t realize it.
Satan’s biggest victory is in convincing people that he doesn’t exist.
Dave, of course I would do what I could to try to warn people of what was about to take place on 9/11, and I would even do what I could to prevent the entire event from taking place. The difference is, if I could go back in time, I’d have the benefit of hindsight, as opposed to religious mythology created for the purpose of controlling and enslaving others.
You’re absolutely right, Dave. It is my duty as a fellow human to warn you and your children of the fate that awaits you if you don’t awaken from your slumber before the final trumpet call. As I see it, “Satan’s” greatest victory was getting one-third of the world to worship him as God. You can call him Lucifer, Beelzebub, Abaddon, Apollyon, Belial or Jesus – it matters not. This business of names does not concern him. What is important to him is that you worship him as the Most High God, and that you either get others to do the same or destroy them in his name. Christians have done a good job of it so far, though they’ve gotten a bit lukewarm in recent times. Whatever happened to that fervor they showed during the Inquisitions and the Crusades and the witch hunts? I’m sure His Satanic Majesty would love to see a return of the good old days before his show is over.
But in the end, there is no payoff for following him. Whether arrayed in a coat of many colors or in hunter’s garb, whether playing a fife or a trumpet, whether he calls himself Jesus or Lucifer, you can be sure the Pied Piper will lead you and your children where you do not want to go.
Dave, I have seen the light. I have a duty to all Christians and their children to warn them that they have been worshiping Satan in disguise all this time. They need to see the fate that awaits them before it’s too late. I shall get a program started in all the public – and Christian – schools and I’ll start with Kindergarten children. Maybe I’ll even see what I can do with the pre-schools while I’m at it. You know, you just can’t start too early with this kind of thing. It really doesn’t matter if Christian parents agree with me or not – this is what I believe and so it is my duty to see this thing through. I’ll get started on that first thing Monday morning. Good thing I took the day off – now I know how I’m going to fill my time! Oh, by the way – do you have any school-aged children? If so, please let me know where they attend school so I’ll know where to start. I’d really love to return the favor!
You speak of the crusades but that was the Catholic church operating under the direction of the pope in the 16th century. While they and many of the crusaders claimed the title “Christian” they were no more Christian than any devout atheist. Those who truly follow Jesus would never have been part of that obscenity.
As for the rest, you are indeed bold in your blasphemy I’ll say that. It is obvious that you at least have made your eternal choice once and for all. I have nothing left for you but pity that you had wisdom within your grasp and have turned your back upon it and sorrow that you are obviously determined to die in your sins.
God does not desire for you to end this way but the choice is yours to make. You are effectively dead already in that you have deliberately chosen not to accept life.
I realize that you will almost certainly not understand this but I’ll say it anyway. Accept Jesus as Lord, I beg of you, reconsider and accept His forgiveness while it may still be had.
Think about it but don’t think too long, the last days are upon us and the time to choose is fast running out. Failure to decide is in itself a decision.
Dave, “blasphemy” isn’t really so bold in a country that, at least at this point in time, has no laws against blasphemy. And if your god is really so offended or threatened by my ideas about him, then he needs to put on his big-boy pants and get over it – as do his followers. If you need me to provide support for my “blasphemous” charges, then all you need to do is ask – I will be happy to oblige you. My sources are the bible (KJV) and the writings of Josephus.
I also would like to say that I find it amusing that any Christian or group of Christians who does anything that embarrasses his/their fellow Christians, that person or group is exiled from Christendom faster than they can say “Hail Mary”! While Christians may think that simply disowning their historical skeletons is the answer, the rest of us are not quite as willing to let you off the hook so easily. After all, wasn’t it Jesus who allegedly stated that a good tree cannot bear evil fruit? Can the tree get around this by simply disowning the fruits that fell from its own limbs? I think not.
This would have hit my trash folder.
and fast.
it’s complete garbage that anyone would think that prayer should be in school, by teachers or otherwise.
.-= ejes´s last blog ..Interesting bash prompts =-.
Complete garbage to think that a person would pray in a situation that clearly needs it? Fascinating.
The author of that ignorant little snippet gets it totally wrong. Teachers can pray QUIETLY TO THEMSELVES WHEN THEY ARE NOT TEACHING.
What they CANNOT do, however, is lead the class in a prayer, or impose their beliefs on the class.
I’m not saying teachers should lead class in prayer (that is, until certain laws get changed or if it’s a religious school to start with). I’m simply saying that with all that they are tasked with and what they face in class every day, teachers need prayer. Then again, so do students.
She can pray at home and go to church and do a Bible Reading in her home first Thursday of the month… Then she can come to school and never ever say a word about it. If parents can decide if there are politics in my child’s class (ie.: recent presidential speech to school children) then I can sure decide if my kids have to hear about prayer.
How about the teacher prays any time that he or she feels the need to do so? and no, I’m not talking about forcing beliefs on anyone. I’m talking about being free to exercise one’s own beliefs.
There is nothing that says teachers are not allowed to pray, only that they may not require their students to pray.
Still, quite funny.
Thank you! Finally somebody that sees it for what it is.
This is retarded.
Noone said teachers can’t pray. Teacher’s just can’t promote their religion, nothing is stopping a teacher from praying to themselves silently while their students take tests, or anything like that.
This is exactly the same as 99.99999% of the forward e-mails that people get, which leads me to believe that you really don’t trash them, you’re just saying that to try to make this more legitimate, I’ve seen it many times.
You’ve seen it many times ‘eh? Good for you, I haven’t.
And I don’t give a flying flip whether you believe me or not about what I do or do not normally delete.
yeah, exactly. its called separation of church and state. if you can’t handle such responsibilities without a false hope, you shouldn’t take the job.
I cant believe neutrinos were mentioned in a post that positively displays religion…moron
Separation of church & state is so totally messed up it isn’t funny. The concept was intended to keep the state out of the church’s business, NOT the other way around!
Do you really think so? Then what do you make of this quote from Thomas Jefferson?
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purposes.
— Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio G Spafford, March 17, 1814
oh, and i understand you don’t have the conviction to allow such a post on your article. typical of a bigot
Exactly what do I not have conviction to allow on my post? Your comment?
She’s free to pray at home, or on her lunch break. Just not in front of the kids.
Oh the woes of a Christian living in a country where the vast majority of people are Christian. Christians are so oppressed because they can only pray on their own time, rather than lead the whole class – regardless of creed – in prayer to the Christian God. All thanks to the bidding of the Evil Atheist who comprises a very threatening 1% of the population.
America is a free country. That means students are free from having the religious beliefs of their teachers forced upon them. As far as I remember, we were allowed to pray at school on our own time. Meaning, not in front of the entire class. Recess was fair game, between class was fair game, before a test (to yourself) was fair game.
Everyone is free to believe what they wish, which is wonderful. We should celebrate that freedom rather than bemoan the fact that America is not a theocracy.
Did I say anything in that post about leading a class in prayer?
Nope, didn’t think so.
since when is most people christian in this country? i know a lotta people will say they’re christian when you ask, but if you go by how many actually make an effort to life as jesus taught then we’re in a minority
Ralph – I’m beginning to wonder if you attended schools where the teachers spent more time praying than teaching. :\
Talk about not understanding what is and isn’t allowed in school.
Teachers, students, janitors, cockroaches can all pray. All the time, whenever they want. No, seriously. Nobody fucking cares if you pray.
What a teacher or student or janitor or cockroach cannot do is stand up at the front of the public school classroom during school hours and say “ok, we’re going to have a group prayer right now.”
Why? Because school is not church. You don’t want your kids indoctrinated into Hinduism just as much as I don’t want my kids indoctrinated into Christianity. There is no way to represent every world religion in the classroom, so it is better to represent no religions in the classroom.
Teach your myths at home to your own kids, don’t try to shove them on me and mine.
Didn’t say anything about group prayer. I have however heard stories about people being told that they’re not allowed to pray because of some silly restriction about where they happen to be, all because the person in question elected to pray aloud. (not in a “take over the room” voice, just in a low conversational tone.)
There’s a time and place for talking out loud to yourself. While you’re on the clock working in a customer service job isn’t it. On break, knock yourself out. Geez.
I think Jesus said it best here:
Matthew 10:32-33, “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”
izza so? how ’bout the group of tourists a few years ago (’96 or ’97 i think it were) where a small church group was touring in capitol. they decided to hold a brief prayer among themselves but in a talk aloud softly voice. they were threatened with arrest because they were praying on government property.
Ralph – I believe this is what you’re referring to, but one of the evangelists sued and won:
U.S. Capitol Praying
A federal judge in Washington, D.C. has ruled in favor of a Maryland evangelist who sued the U.S. Capitol Police after he was told it was illegal for him to pray inside the U.S. Capitol because praying was considered to be a prohibited form of demonstration. The Court also ordered the Capitol Police to refrain from using what it calls ‘an unconstitutional restriction on speech’ in the future.
Pierre Bynum, an associate pastor at Waldorf Christian Assembly in Waldorf, Maryland, and a group of eight persons were on a self-guided tour of the Capitol in November of 1996 and engaged in a few moments of prayer during which the members of the group bowed their heads and folded their hands. The police said such activity was considered to be a ‘demonstration’ and warned the group they would be arrested if they continued to pray.
Bynum was represented in his lawsuit by the American Center for Law and Justice, whose senior counsel James Henderson said the ruling was ‘ an important decision upholding the First Amendment rights of all citizens.'” (Maranatha Christian Journal . 4/11/2000.)
Wow. This really isn’t that interesting or funny.
Yet you took time to comment on it. That’s interesting and maybe even funny depending on your point of view and sense of humor.
Amusing. But nobody is stopping him/her from praying (or is she one of the hypocrites Jesus warned about that wants to stand on the street corner and pray out loud?).
Government doesn’t read minds and punish anyone for thinking a certain way, that’s the Christian god’s job.
When Jesus taught that about the hypocrites standing on the street corner praying aloud He was talking about people who were doing it specifically to be seen doing it. A true Christian will pray, either aloud or silently, whenever the situation warrants and frequently the choice of aloud or silent is a matter of personal preference. For example I prefer to speak to God in normal conversational tone. If somebody hears me it’s not because I’m trying to be heard by them because THEY are not whom I’m speaking to.
“When Jesus taught that about the hypocrites standing on the street corner praying aloud He was talking about people who were doing it specifically to be seen doing it. A true Christian will pray, either aloud or silently, whenever the situation warrants and frequently the choice of aloud or silent is a matter of personal preference.”
Yeah, and people that complain that they can’t pray out loud in front of their class of children in school are probably such hypocrites. If their preference is to do it out loud they are doing it for others to hear (unless, of course, they are alone), and there’s no way you can get around that.
And let’s not pretend you know a “true” Christian when you see him/her, or that you can judge what a “true” Christian is.
Pray out loud in church, by all means, but don’t pretend that doing it in front of school kids is constitutional, or ethical.
“For example I prefer to speak to God in normal conversational tone. If somebody hears me it’s not because I’m trying to be heard by them because THEY are not whom I’m speaking to.”
You have no idea how crazy this makes you appear, do you?
1 Corinthians 1:27, “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;”
Using bible quotes when beaten? Typical Christian.
I wonder what Jesus would say if he knew you used his word to try to insult people? I bet he would be proud.
First, I’m not quite a “typical” Christian.
Second, I wasn’t “beaten” by any stretch of the imagination. God is on my side and … Romans 8:31, “What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?”
Third, I didn’t use it to try to insult anyone. I used it to prove a point, that God uses things that the secular world considers foolish, like prayer and preaching, to baffle and perplex those who have not and will not choose to become His children… those who have essentially decided that they are their own god, Etc.
“First, I’m not quite a “typical” Christian. ”
That’s what we all would like to think, right? That we are unique. Tell me, what about you makes you un-typical?
“Third, I didn’t use it to try to insult anyone. I used it to prove a point”
This shows me that you are clearly out of touch with reality. It does so in two ways:
#1: You don’t seem to understand that calling someone “foolish” or “unwise” could be considered an insult.
#2: Using bible quotes to “prove a point” to a non-Christian is like me using the Qur’an to prove to you that Jesus was in no way divine. It tells me you can’t put yourself in another person’s shoes and at least try to see things from an objective perspective.
Please let me know when you are ready to discuss like a person that can think for himself.
How hypocritical, “Korinthian”, for you to accuse anyone of insults, when your own name is meant to make mockery of the Holy Word.
Calling out what is apparent in this case, otherwise known as rebuke, is accepted (one could even say encouraged) in Christianity.
Though, Ed, I think Proverbs 9:8 is your indication to give up on Mr. “Korinthians”
“Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you.” (NIV)
then yer gonna luv thisun….romans 1:22, “professing themselves to be wise, they became fools”
Proverbs 15:14 The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.
In some schools, the kids are not allowed to pray at any time. That is against the Constitution, but of course the government does NOT care. Even choice by the kids is not allowed. If someone chooses to NOT believe there is a God, why are they allowed to force THEIR belief or lack of belief on others? If people want to pray, let them. If people do not want to pray, let them.
My question is, in times of trouble, why are people denied what comfort they can find? Bigotry is more than just a distinction between skin colors.
What schools? Find me ONE public school where kids are not allowed to nondisruptively pray to themselves. Just one, and I will send it along to the ACLU, because that is unconstitutional.
One other thing: It isn’t atheists forcing nonbeliefs on anyone. Its that there are too many religions. If EVERY god and belief can’t be included then NO god or belief should be included. It’s only fair.
First, I’d venture to say that probably most public schools qualify because even if a kid is “nondisruptively” praying, if somebody finds out that’s what they’re doing they end up getting the “you can’t do that in school” speech if only because somebody’s afraid of a lawsuit.
Second, I can’t help questioning that last about nonbeliefs. Seems to me that it’s happening more and more frequently that somebody is minding their own business practicing their faith and next thing you know some nit has the ACLU and a team of lawyers after ’em to force them to stop. I had this funny idea that one of the basic foundations of this country was religious freedom but in just the last fifty years that’s been under more and more attack. Where is my religious freedom if I can get hauled into court because I choose to pray or display a cross or manger scene where non-believers are able to see it? The way I see it, non-believers seem to have more rights in this regard than believers.
Granted, a non-believer has the right to decide that they don’t believe and not practice (insert name of religion here) if they so choose, however it seems that they can also take action against believers to prevent them from practicing their faith.
Sounds like a double standard to me.
I don’t believe that other religions get the same treatment as any Christian religion. The Muslim faith seems to be quite protected, displays of faith during any point (bowing toward Mecca, head wraps, etc.) rarely spark “a talking to” like Christian prayer/crosses do. There’s such a hatred towards that particular faith, it’s amazing and a little saddening. People are very hypocritical when it comes to the discussion of faith.
You might want take a look at the history of Christianity and what they have traditionally forced on others, and by what means, when given an inch. Muslims, on the other hand, tend to mind their own business (at least, in America, where they are not the majority). Christians have to constantly be reminded to keep their religious beliefs to themselves in public. Christians would never for one minute tolerate in others what they themselves feel quite free to do in this regard.
ifn i havta chooose btween right and fair, i choose right
Ralph – who gets to decide what is “right” in your world? I’m assuming that would be you. What do you think would happen if we all threw “fair” out the window and just let everybody do whatever they thought was “right”? What kind of chaos would we have then?
Personally, I think it would be “right” to teach children from a young age that Christianity is a Roman fabrication designed to replace the militant form of Judaism that threatened to wreak havoc in the Roman Empire about 2000 years ago. Inventing religion was something the Romans were very good at, and with the help of Josephus, they had the tools they needed to craft a “Jewish” Messiah (and his apostles) who would instruct the Jewish rebels to render unto Caesar what was Caesar’s (see Matthew 22:15-22) and to obey the authorities because they were placed there by God (see Romans 13:1-7). The Messianic Jews were in need of a Messiah, and Jesus was made to order – at least, from a Roman perspective. I think that it would be “right” to demolish this house of cards built on a foundation of sand once and for all, especially given all the harm it has done over the last two thousand years.
So tell me, Ralph, do you think I should do what I believe is “right” where other people’s children are concerned, or should I do what is “fair,” and let their parents determine when and where their children get their religious education?
Fight the power my brother.
Remain strong.
Believer – to what power are you referring, exactly?
That was truly lame.
I suppose lameness, like beauty and many other things, is in the eye of the beholder.
I liked your post. I wish so many people weren’t so threatened by it. To deny that Christians are not being treated differently than any other religion in schools and other public institution is foolish.
http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=801#
http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=795
http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=777
http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=771
Specifically for school prayer:
http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=758
http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=751
http://www.aclj.org/TrialNotebook/Read.aspx?id=629
These were found in 5 minutes with two searches on one website.
The info is out there people. Using won’t violate your little atheist sensitivities, people.
Something about going into your closet to pray comes to mind…let me see, who was it who said that again? Christians never seem to remember it, so I guess it must not have been that important after all. Nevermind – please continue praying loudly in the streets to be heard of men…as you were.
I know the passage you’re referring to. The general meaning of it is that we’re not to make a big show of praying like the Pharisees of old did. I still don’t see anything wrong with a prayer in ordinary conversational tones as long as the person doing so is not requiring anyone else to take part that doesn’t want to. Remember, there’s also a bit about not being ashamed of Him before men.
Explain to me why you feel you need to pray openly and hold organized prayers? You’re free to pray silently, and students aren’t stopped from praying. But a teacher praying before a class creates a situation where students can be afraid to share their own views in terms of religion. I’m sure that if a teacher tried leading students in an islamic prayer parents would scream. The same is true of neo-pagan ceremonies or anything else. If you want prayer in the classroom then people get to use science to point out issues in theology and explain why evolution is actually accurate as opposed to ‘god said poof and it happened’
You’re describing two completely different things.
.
1) a teacher praying openly before a class
2) a teacher leading students in (insert name of religion) prayer.
In the first case, the teacher is not leading or forcing anyone to join them. They’re simply not making a secret of the fact that they’re praying, not being ashamed of Jesus before men, Etc.
In the second, the teacher is (in your words) LEADING the students in prayer. I see no problem at all with the first scenario and can easily understand anybody having a problem with the second.
Make no mistake however, they’re both totally different things.
Feel free to pray, just please keep it to yourself, silent, in your head. Whatever gets you through the day. My kids should not be subjected to your beliefs in a public classroom. If you have a problem with this perhaps you should be teaching at a private school.
First. I’m not a teacher. Never said or implied that I was.
Second. Whatever happened to the right to free expression of religion? I believe that’s covered in the Bill of rights.
Third. I don’t think that a teacher (or anybody for that matter) who takes a moment to say a prayer is “subjecting” anyone to anything. Especially in school which has in the last 50 years become the one place that you can pretty much guarantee that most students are absolutely not paying THAT much attention to teachers. If they were, this country wouldn’t be falling behind so much of the rest of the world academically.
Now if a teacher says something to the class on the order of “Ok, now we’re all going to pray …”, that’s another matter entirely.
Ed – so if I wanted to do a pagan ritual in front of a group of public school children, without the prior knowledge or consent of their parents, would this be covered in the Bill of Rights as well? Or is it only Christians whose “rights” are covered in that document?
Well, take a look at the first amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Considering things like halloween, the easter bunny (which has nothing to do with the Christian celebration of the resurrection of Christ), the pagan / druidic origins of what the catholic church made over into what is now celebrated as Christmas (along with the fact that only Christians celebrate Christ on that day), I think that there are plenty of examples of people being permitted to do exactly as you are suggesting in an effort to generate shock.
What I don’t care for is the apparent double standard. In today’s society it seems that “or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” applies to all except Christianity. Why is that?
If somebody objects to a muslim practice such as the wearing of veils & such, everybody gets upset about how their religious freedom is being limited somehow. The same goes for practically any non-christian group and their religious activities from prayer to ritual. It is only when Christians have the unmitigated GALL to actually ACT on their beliefs and want to do something like pray before engaging in a spiritually, mentally, emotionally or physically stressful activity. Well then all hell breaks loose … “We can’t have that!” Etc. Etc. ETc.
Yet, if a Christian parent were to object to a wiccan activities, I have no doubt that the Christian would be held in the wrong by society. Even though literally ANY group is permitted in modern society to object to a Christian engaging in Christian activities.
Ed, I agree that if you allow it for one religious group, you have to allow it for all. I personally don’t see anything disruptive about a student wearing a cross, pentagram, Star of David, or head scarf, and I think that such simple displays of one’s faith should be permitted. But open, non-silent prayer or other religious rituals would be disruptive in a public school setting – especially when you have to make room for all of them. Can you imagine a classroom of 30 kids with 30 different faiths, all practicing their religion during class? How effective do you think a teacher could be in that circus? But if you’re going to prevent one, then you have to prevent all. That’s only fair. However, no one can control what’s going on in the private theater of your own mind, so why not practice your religion there rather than making a show of it?
Matthew 6, read it. also this dern post is not about praying, its about teachers not getting paid…talk about sideswiping the lightning right out of a topic….nice background, though. Pigs have only one testicle in russia.
On that, you are SO wrong.
.
As the author of the post, I guarantee you it’s absolutely, positively without any hope of a thought of a possibility of a question, one hundred percent not about teachers not getting paid. I further guarantee you that it most certainly *IS* about praying. Specifically it’s about teachers being allowed to pray.
Please note that I’m NOT advocating teachers requiring students to pray, just that they be allowed to do so themselves in the manner that suits their beliefs.
somebody please tell me what pig balls have to do with this?
“It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.” – George Washington, September 19, 1796.
The founding fathers made it clear that the idea of separating church and state was to prevent the state from running the church, not to keep the church and Christianity from it’s proper place in the running of the state. (I.E. The formation of the Church of England by the King after the Catholics told him he was wrong. Study some of that history y’all are so fond of quoting at us.)
And before you go and try and say that Washington was a gnostic, which is the atheist battle-cry of the last 20 years or so, read his personal diary, or his letters to Martha, or basically any correspondence he ever recorded.
“Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the emaculate blood of the lamb and purge my heart by thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in thy fear, and dying in thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of thee and thy son, Jesus Christ.”
A quote from Washington’s personal prayer book.
I’ve got more from Jefferson, Adam’s, etc. etc… A lot of these are not from public letters or documents, but from private diaries and journals. These aren’t the scripted, scrubbed and sanitized thoughts readied for public consumption. This is how they truly thought and believed and recorded.
So don’t try and throw separation of church and state at us. And I’ll tell you what, you stop teaching evolution in schools, and teacher’s won’t pray out loud. We’ll call it a draw. Until that point though, it just wouldn’t be fair to preach atheism and not religion.
Thanks for posting that! Speaking for myself, I’d love to see more of that material. Is there a website or blog where it’s posted or is this offline hardcopy?
Ed, here’s one site:
http://rationalrant.blogspot.com/2009/08/more-fake-quotation-sightings.html
And here’s another:
http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/fake-quotations-washington-and-governing-without-god
I’ve had a brief look at them but honestly, I simply don’t have enough time to devote to a full study to determine the accuracy of the material presented there so I will have to leave it to others who do have the time. From the looks of this thread of comments, there ought to be some willing to investigate.
And resorting to using fake quotes is helpful…how?
Excuse me but if you’re going to call something fake then I’m going to ask you to provide objective proof of that falsehood.
Ed, I find it interesting that you would demand such evidence after stating that you do not have time to examine the evidence I’ve already given you! Oh well, I will present it, but it is up to you to examine it. Do not complain to me if you refuse to do so. Please note the date that is listed in the above “quote” – September 19, 1796. That was the date of George Washington’s farewell speech, which you can read here for yourself:
http://millercenter.org/scripps/archive/speeches/detail/3462
Please let me know if you come across a single reference to “God” or “the bible” or “OUR religion” anywhere in that speech. Here is the part of the speech that was shamelessly embellished:
“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness–these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”
Also, here is an article that I believe provides ample evidence that George Washington was not a bible-believing Christian and would not have made such statements about “God” and “the bible” as have been attributed to him by Christian fundamentalists for their own purposes:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html
Ok, I didn’t say that I would not examine what you’re presenting. I said simply that “I simply don’t have enough time to devote to a full study”, which is true. I’m actually quite busy with trying to keep up with and attempt to monetize no less than seven (soon to be eight, possibly nine) blogs, I’m also working on several ongoing (as in series of episodes) video projects which can sometimes become VERY time consuming very quickly (Google the terms “rotoscoping” and “keyframing” and you’ll see what I mean.), on top of that I’m also working on a script based on one of my wife’s short stories. Then there’s my offline life, which also has a tendency to get rather busy from time to time, especially when you add in various family health issues that tend to complicate things.
So please understand, when I say I’m busy, I’m not just handing you a line of crap excuse. I have looked at the material and will do so again, including the links you’ve provided here. However because of time restraints I simply cannot get into a full in-depth study.
Besides all that.
I want to make clear that I have never claimed to be some kind of “scholarly” type. I’m just a guy that believes in God and the salvation of Jesus. I believe the Bible to be the truth and have tried, as much as I could, to study it and refer as much as a non-scholar non-linguist can manage to the original languages involved rather than simply relying on the English translations because I know full well that the English didn’t even exist when the books we know as the Bible were written.
I know a reasonable amount of American history, though not as much as I should (yet probably far more than kids get in school these days), yet I don’t pretend to know everything because I know full well that anyone who does is a fool and an idiot.
I try to answer questions and respond to comments here as intelligently as I can however there’s only so much I can do. Frankly I think it would be great if others Christians who share my point of view and perhaps have more education and / or time would jump into this discussion. Given the amount of traffic that this post an string of comments is getting I *know* that there must be some.
Ed – I understand about being busy. I am typically away from home about 11 hours a day for work, which doesn’t leave a whole lot of time for my internet playtime. I try for 2 hours a day, but I’m lucky to get even an hour in on most work days. No rush, but I would like to get your feedback when you get a chance. Thanks.
i get it, were sposed to take your quotes as gospel but if a christian quotes something then its fake? sorry honey, that pig won’t fly
Ralph – perhaps you missed where I already posted the proof, as Ed requested that I do? Or do you just skip over the posts that have the potential of upsetting your world view?
Franklin, let me get this straight…if teachers would only stop teaching SCIENCE in schools, then you’ll stop teaching RELIGION in schools. Is that pretty much the gist of what you’re saying? Isn’t that kind of like telling Christian preachers to stop preaching the Gospel in church, and then scientists will stop teaching evolution in the churches? You would rightly argue that the preacher has every right to preach the gospel in church and the scientists have no business teaching evolution there. Well, the reverse is true as well. Schools are places for teaching things like SCIENCE and math and the like. Churches are places for teaching religion. See how that works?
Franklin – in addition to what I’ve already stated to Ed regarding the bogus quote allegedly taken from Washington’s farewell address, the bit that was supposedly taken from his personal prayer book was also a fraud, which has already been debunked. Please see this site for more information:
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2007/05/rodda_on_washingtons_prayer_jo.php
Good going, Debbie. I’ve already lost my patience with these guys, they don’t seem to understand the difference between freedom of religion (as opposed to “freedom *from* religion”) and the freedom of indoctrinating other people’s children.
Keep up the good work.
Thanks, Korinthian! But hey, don’t give up now, lest you wake up one day and find yourself living in a theocracy! I don’t know about you, but that’s my greatest nightmare!